Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:04 Welcome to Feld Architecture Breeze Blocks where our editors share their thoughts on works in progress, urgent matters, and current happenings in architecture and s spatial politics. My name is Charlie Cleos, editor, currently based in Marick in the Netherlands. And for this episode, I'm talking to Zani Menzo, director of the balance section of the Fedi Netherland ing in English, the building section of the Federation of Dutch Trade Unions FM A, which serves architects as well as construction workers and other people working in the Dutch building industry. Zani and I, along with several other people, have been working closely together in the last several months, trying to unionize architectural workers in the Netherlands, which has brought us in touch with a lot of workers, as well as several friends of Feld architecture, including previous Breeze Block guest, Marissa Kwright, as well as Ta Vela from UK Architectures Trade Union, United Voices of the World Section Architectural Workers, and Katherine Cuk and Vela Alara, host of the Dutch Language Architecture Podcast responds, each of whom have come to speak at meetings of the new initiative, NA or n naa, a flexible acronym standing for, among other things, Netherlands, angry Architects, nave after work in Dutch and Netherland, sir architect in NY Netherlands.
Speaker 1 00:01:19 Architects Anonymous in English. <unk> is also a member of the board of the building and Woodworks international work for which has recently taken her to Qatar, which was the more topical prompt for this brief conversation in which we discuss the current situation in Qatar and possible developments in the aftermath of the Men's Football World Cup. But first we start by discussing our progress organizing in the Netherlands. So we met in June, and uh, we've been working together since then, trying to organize architects in the Netherlands, uh, together along with several other people. We, uh, launched Netherlands Angry Architects, NAS Flexible acronym. Maybe you could talk a little bit now about what your experience has been over the past three months in terms of working a little bit closer with architects and trying to understand their problems and what you can do for them.
Speaker 2 00:02:15 Yes, yes, I will. So my name is Samani Menzo and I'm a union officer for F and fee, the Netherlands. We are the biggest union in the Netherlands, and we are also a union for architects. And I work for the department, uh, that is organizing architects, but also construction workers. Yes, what you're saying is quite interesting, Charlie, because I'm, the first thing that I need to say is that I found out that it is really nice to working with architect architects and talking with them. The five at our meetings is incredible, even though the problems are sometimes huge, but there is a positive five people are nice to each other. They are very open and friendly and loyal, and I think the loyalty can be a problem as well, because you can see that also in their work attitude. They are very loyal to their employer, and what I can see is people are making too much working hours.
Speaker 2 00:03:09 They don't get paid for those hours. And even though for me, money is not the most important thing because health is more important. So the first thing that I'm concerned is health. And also how long can you do that working? So much hours. I mean, a lot of people that are coming to my meetings are still young, but how long can you work so much hours with so much pressure that, that that is something that is, it can be healthy. And then the second reason is if you don't get paid for Rich or a volunteer, and volunteer rework is very well, very good and respectful. But I don't think as an architect working for architect company or a volunteer, I I don't think that is good. It shouldn't be like that. So I found out that, that, that, that there is a lot of working hours.
Speaker 2 00:03:53 The working pressure is very, very, very big, very hard. Um, I can compare it to construction. We can see the same in construction in the offices, uh, with white collar workers. Also the same loyalty. It's not that weird because a lot of you had the same education, the same study in university or the same bachelor degree as as construction workers, especially then the white collar workers. So it isn't that weird, but it is very unhealthy and it, it is not for me, it shows no respect to workers besides that what, what I also notice is that especially young people are not getting the respect that they deserve. They are trying very hard to build up a curriculum. And I think that employers are misusing that. They're also misusing the spirits of these workers. And, and a lot of times when I, when I spoke to employers, they are saying, no, but ASHI Tax, they don't work for the money. They have passion. But to be honest, you can't pay people with passion. You need to pay them with money. Even for now, the winter is coming and, uh, energy prices are rising and you cannot pay your energy bill with passion. There is not enough passion to pay the bills. That is one thing I really, it's really hurting me. It's really disturbing me that employers are saying that about their workers Passion. Yeah, no passion is something you have in the bedroom. <laugh>, you know, it is something private.
Speaker 1 00:05:21 <laugh> nice. Obviously, I, I think most of our meetings so far have been trying to work out as well, what do architects, what, what are their problems, right? It's almost like we're offering them this space to actually speak about some of the things that they don't get a chance in their employment. We've had three meetings now, and most of them have been just this opportunity. It seems like for one of the rare opportunities for architects in different employment settings to really kind of realize that they all are getting kind of ripped off and fucked over, maybe. Yes,
Speaker 2 00:05:57 Yes. And then you can see that is, it is not just one office. Yeah. I mean, of course you definitely have good employers mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there are definitely good offices, but in in general, the culture is very hard. Yeah. That is a, a general overview of the architecture fully.
Speaker 1 00:06:11 Yeah. So I mean, we've not really got that far beyond just working out what do people need? What do they, what do they want from the collective labor agreement, the c o which actually is kind of fast approaching. Maybe it's nice to talk a little bit about that right now. Like what that involves and what needs to happen for the renegotiation to happen in, in a way that will at least benefit the architects more than they're currently being benefited.
Speaker 2 00:06:40 Yes, yes. So starting from the 1st of January, 2023, so in a few days actually there is a pay raise of 4%, and part of it was already negotiated in the collective bargaining agreement. And a part of it is, is a new agreement that we have because of the inflation. I mean, 4% is, it does, doesn't cover inflation, but I mean, it's, it is still a bit, it is something, it is a contribution. So of course I wanted more, but I'm still happy that employers were positive about doing this while the collective bargaining agreement wasn't even finished. That is not something unusual. This is very, very, very unusual. And if you look at the total pay grade of this collective bargaining year, this is the first time in history that it was this amount in percentage. And of course, we need to do better. We need to do more, but I need you, I mean, my strength on the collective bargaining table comes with my members.
Speaker 2 00:07:37 You are my power. So if I have less members, I have less power. If I have more members, I have more power to together. We're strong. So I really need people to, to sign up and to join the union. I know that you are very busy. Not everybody needs to be active, but at least show me that you are there. And at this moment we also, we are having a membership action, six months membership for 25 euro. And that is a amount that a lot of people can afford. And besides that, every year you can get, uh, a part of the money back, which a bri net or salary. So even if you pay the normal price, you will always get around 40%, you can get back. So that is also one of the benefits. But, uh, besides that, the collective bargaining agreement that we are having now is in the end of February. It's finishing. So we will start negotiating probably in January or the beginning of February. And I'm inviting you all to our meetings, uh, follow NA on Instagram because they will share everything that f and p does. Of course, I share it also, but I have only information, uh, from my members. But of course I will share it through now because now's a sister organization and come and please tell me what it is that it is important
Speaker 1 00:08:54 For you. So one of the other things that is a benefit, I suppose, of union membership that is, um, maybe a little bit more abstract, but is very important is solidarity. Solidarity with fellow workers. Not just solidarity that we've seen in the meetings between architectural workers, but also potential solidarity between construction workers, workers in other parts of the world Yes. Who are affected by the building industry, but also workers in general. Th this kind of relationship has been, um, obscured or, uh, there've been barriers put up between different types of workers to kind of prevent that sort of solidarity from the power of that sort of solidarity from being realized, uh, over the years, over the decades. Always. Maybe first if you want to just talk about the, some of the other work that you're doing with workers in the Netherlands and the construction industry, but also this is a good opportunity, I opposed to start talking about more recent work internationally, especially in Qatar. Yeah. Um, I'd like to hear a little bit about yeah. What the importance is of solidarity with workers in other industries in the Netherlands, in further afield. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:10:05 That's that's good. You know, so solidarity is really important. We have of course, international solidarity, but also for instance, I mean, we are in the Netherlands, so I will use that example. We need so solidarity as well. Otherwise employers will, they will define us. For instance, what you can see is sometimes a temporary workers or trainees or being treated differently. And that is also a way to create a situation where people are not solidarity anymore or maybe a self-employed personal or getting treated differently. So solidarity is really, really important. Uh, for instance, I I, I do the ATech. I'm a union officer for the ATech branch, but tomorrow I have a strike in the cement industry. I will be there at four in the morning, but I will be there. Doesn't matter because united we stand that that is, that is really, really important. And international solidarity as well.
Speaker 2 00:10:57 We are, we are doing a lot at f and fee on international solidarity because the world is, it's, it looks big, but it's really small. So if we are allowing that companies are mistreating workers in other companies, that will set the bar also in the Netherlands, it's not even about the benefits for ourselves, but everything what is happening in other countries, it's, it really can happen here as well because the plane is also stopping at triple. That's al always something. I remember, if you are mistreating people in Qatar or in India, be aware if you are standing in the Netherlands looking at those mistreats, that that same plane that stops in Qatar can stop in the Netherlands as well. And then, I mean, it, it is devastating for, for, for the system, but also for people's rights, for human rights, for workers' rights. And I, I think that we are not realizing that our human rights and also workers' rights are on the line even nowadays to strike. Sometimes for us as a union, sometimes we need to go to court because employers are saying, no, you can't strike. But striking is, is it's, it's, it is our right mm-hmm. <affirmative> to strike mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, uh, people don't realize that a lot of our rights are on the pressure and that we really need to, to stand for it, and we need to, to, we need to take a stand, otherwise it'll finish <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:12:23 So, um, you've just a couple weeks back, come back from a trip across, across the ocean. You started in Australia, right? And then went to Indonesia and then ended in Qatar. Maybe do you want to talk a little bit about what you were up to there and your work as, um, a member of the board of the building workers and is it the, how do I say this? The building, the builders
Speaker 2 00:12:46 And wood building and wood
Speaker 1 00:12:47 Workers, the builders and wood workers International, right? Yes. Uh, which has done a lot of work in Qatar in terms of improving working conditions there.
Speaker 2 00:12:55 Yes, true. I'm a, I'm a well board member of the building of BUCA International, that is our federation. So as F and fee, we are also members of the union and bwi, that, that is our international union. And we are active in a lot of countries and we are trying to do our best in a lot of countries. But Les week I was in Qatar and we were active in Qatar for a little bit more than 10 years because we think it is important that migrants workers there, that their human rights are, get respected and their workers' rights also getting respected. So that is the reason it is not always easy in Qatar. In the past we would really go in, in big secret. And nowadays when I'm there, I'm also very aware that, I mean, the situation is not quite safe because unions for migrant workers are forbidden. And of course the Qatari government knows that BWI is there, but still we need to be careful. We have, we, we also have leaders in Qatar. I will never post pictures, et cetera of them because we have quite a network, but for them, they are really putting their lives on a risk to create and to build a union. And we don't realize that in the Netherlands we are, and maybe in in the whole of Europe, we are taking things for granted. Do
Speaker 1 00:14:12 You have much of a read on the situation of what it's like to work in Qatar at the moment? Like, uh, what it will be like, um, if there's been any improvement, you've been there more than once. Um, have you seen improvement?
Speaker 2 00:14:24 Improvement is particularly also in the housing of people, the living conditions or better than when we started during Corona was, is there were terrible situations, but, uh, leave that apart. The, the situation is better than as we saw it in the first, like 10 years ago. The minimum pay grade is higher, a bit higher. That is also something that bwi, the International Construction Union fight for. And I say International Construction Union, but also ATech companies are also a part of that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, construction family, uh, and wood workers as well. So we can see those things. That is, that is a change. But still, there is no freedom of speak. If I ask workers over there, what is, I ask them the other time. I said, what is your wish? What do you want? And then they said, I want freedom of speech and I want respect, even though I'm a cleaner, I want to be proud to be a cleaner because I'm proud of it, but I cannot tell people I'm proud of it.
Speaker 2 00:15:24 I have to be ashamed of it. And that is something big if somebody is wishing for freedom of speech. So that hurts. So human rights and workers rights, they are not good enough developed. It is better, but it's still not as it should be. Like I said, we have leaders over there, people that are leaders in their communities. And one of the biggest problems is also that the government knows who they are because for a while ago, before the, before the matches were studied, we had the hope that things would change, would, would change. And now we can see because as, uh, the international union, we ask for a migrant workers center. The Migrant Workers Center is a center for migrant workers where they can come and they can get information about their duties. And the many rights they have, they don't have a lot, but the rights they have, we can inform them in some situations.
Speaker 2 00:16:21 They can also file in a case against their employer. So the Micro Center could, for instance, help them with information, but we can also provide a Arabic lessons, health and safety lessons, but also to drink a cup of tea and to meet each other. They don't have anything migrant workers to meet each other and to talk with each other, to educate themselves. And that is something we ask for. And we really had hope. But at this point, the matches are already over this eight December today, I think the 17th, no, the 18th of December is the final. And that is also World Migrants Day. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we still don't have any commitment from the government to open a migrants workers center. And yes, it, it is painful because migrant workers really, they really need it.
Speaker 1 00:17:08 Yeah. And in this moment as well, there's a lot of, uh, attention to it. And you can imagine that they might well just wash their hands of it afterwards Right. When the scrutiny isn't there and maybe fall back on, I guess old habits Did, like when you were first there, do you have an idea of, uh, you like what the experience was of workers, how bad it was at the first experience you had of the Yeah. Yes. Was there a particular story you have or, I
Speaker 2 00:17:34 Don't know. Yes. Yes. It is terrible. I mean, workers, they, they, they work 10 to 12 hours a day. And imagine that the World Cup is, is moved to the winter now, it is winter now in Qatar, and I think it's 30 degrees and the stadiums, they have air conditioning. But in the first, the first idea was to do the World Cup in the summertime, and then they said, no, it's too hot. Those, those football players can't play because it's too hot. And imagine that the workers that the stadiums, they work with more than 40 degrees. They work for 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day, not getting enough rest, not getting enough water to drink. We know that the health and safety conditions were terrible. I mean, those circumstances are not, not for humans. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:18:21 I mean if it's, they're saying it's like not suitable for the footballers who are out there for what, 90 minutes one time, one or two times a week. Right. Like, whereas these people are working, what, six days, seven days a week, 10, 12 hours? It's,
Speaker 2 00:18:33 Yes, it is a lot. And like six days a week, sometimes seven days a week with you can't complain. You just need to work. You just, you know, even sometimes the food wasn't always good and, and housing was very bad. Now, housing has changed a bit, and the pay grade is a little bit more, but it's still not enough. But it was, it is terrible. Uh, it was terrible for those construction workers. And now everybody is looking at Qatar, but in two weeks,
Speaker 1 00:19:04 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:05 Nobody knows anymore. So that, that is, I'm coming back to the migrant workers Center. That is one of the reasons why we are claiming why we were asking and fighting for the migrant workers center. Yeah, legacy.
Speaker 2 00:19:17 A legacy that is exactly what, what we call it as well, a legacy. Because when we first know that Qatar would host the World Cup, we said no. And we, we, we started the boycott, and after a few, a lot, a lot of talks with workers, and they told us, no, don't boycott because this is how we eat. Even though we don't make a lot of money, even though I'm almost dying, I can send a bit of my money to my children. And that is also one of the stories that is really hurtful. When you talk with workers and you say, and you talk with them about the family, et cetera, they say, yes, I didn't see my children for 10 or 12 years. Wow. I mean, that is hard. I mean, and, and, and don't understand me wrong, the migrant workers, they will stay in Qatar because the mo the most people or migrant workers, the Qatar is like 5% Yeah. Of the entire population. And the migrants workers are more than 90, 90, 90 5%. So they will, they will stay there. They have nowhere to go. And there is a lot of work still in Qatar for them to do. Yeah. So it is really painful that they, they don't see their families and they, they need to suffer for such a little, little bit of money actually. Yeah. But still that money allows them to keep their family alive and to make sure their kids can study.
Speaker 1 00:20:34 So, um,
Speaker 2 00:20:35 Sorry, can I give you another story? Yeah. This is a recent story. It's two weeks ago. There was a woman, also migrant worker in Qatar. And her employer, he, he liked her, but she said, said, no, I'm, I'm married and I don't like you, et cetera. And he want her, he asked her a few times to go away with him to some place. And she said, no, no, no. And now she's missing. Nobody knows where she is. And her kid is 12 years old and she's still there. And the community is taking care of her kid, even though they don't have a lot of money, but they will take care of the kid because the mother is gone. And I mean, there are a lot of countries, they are getting their, their, their young woman, their children back in coffins, they are getting mistreated at home.
Speaker 2 00:21:18 Also, of course, construction workers that are dying from the hard work they are doing. So for us, it is really difficult to reach out to nannies, for instance, because some of the nannies, they don't get outside. They only stay inside the house. And when they go outside, it's to watch the children, but their bosses are also there, so we cannot reach out to them. So what we are trying to do, but we are already doing, we are providing, we try to provide education to keep those migrants out of houses, but maybe they can learn, um, a skill and do other work. And that makes it safer for them. Because what you also need to understand is that if you are a nanny, maybe, and I don't say that every nanny has the same story, but this is the story that I hear a lot as well.
Speaker 2 00:22:06 First you have the problem with the father, but after a few years, the son is getting big as well. So then you have a problem with the father and the son, and that is the real thing. Also, suicide is a thing. People, they, they can't live with those circumstances. So again, what they're trying to do is empowerment courses. They ask me also to give self-defense training. And one of my sisters from another union is a <unk>. She has the black belt and a lot of other degrees. So she can give self-defense classes. So she will do it. And also to make it even prettier, she's one of the big bosses of a construction company. Mm-hmm. So she's really a colleague of Yeah, yeah. Of, of, of you and and our listeners. So that is one thing we are doing. We are trying to, instead of giving money education, because that leads to money, but also nice things to keep their mind of the situation.
Speaker 2 00:22:56 Of course. And we are organizing that, we are doing that for years. And now we also have support of the KFI Bee. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because the Dutch football team decided to sell their shirts after the games. So all the money that they are raising is going to f and fee with the agreement. Of course, that f and fee will well spend the money in Qatar and in the region. Uh, because of course Qatar is not the only country where we see this problem. The Regio and the Qala system is not only in Qatar, even though it's officially, there is no Qal system. And I will not, uh, take the time to explain what Kaha system is, but it's like a sponsorship, but you can of course search it on the internet. So I'm really grateful that kfi b I mean, they took the effort, the players, these stories are also, yeah, I think they're, the workers are in their heart, otherwise you won't do this because they can sell their shirts for themselves. I mean, not every player is a millionaires. They can do whatever they want, but they choose to do this. And I'm really grateful for that, and I'm really grateful for, uh, yeah. The help of Kfi B and the the Dutch players.
Speaker 1 00:24:01 Any last things you wanna shout out
Speaker 2 00:24:03 Or, uh, no, it is, I mean, I think that this is important for workers to consider what they have and don't take it for granted because there is only one organization that is there for workers. And I don't say that you have to join f and fee. I always say, if you can do it better start your union. And I don't mean that sarcastic, but you can also start the union. But one fact of a matter, only a union is there for workers. There is no other organization that is a hundred percent for workers. Even if you come to me and say, Samani, I'm getting fired because I stole, I'm your union. I will tell you that you're stupid. But <laugh>, that doesn't matter. When I call your employer, I will make a fist for you because you're my member. So there is only one organization in the world that fights for workers, and that is, and that will always be the union and international solidarity and solidarity amongst workers is really, really, really important.
Speaker 2 00:24:59 Because don't forget, employers are always solidarity to each other. They have political parties when they can show it. They are really solid there. So don't be the stupid one when your employee says, ah, that union, no, because even though the changes are big, that your employer is part of the union, of the federation for employers, that is normal. That is very good. I support that and I even promote it. And then for you, he is, he's going to tell you that unions are from, for, for the past or for other people that you are not a worker, et cetera, et cetera. You don't need it. Don't fall into debt. Everybody needs solidarity. Everybody needs collectively, because together you are strong.
