Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:02 Welcome to fail architecture, breeze blocks, where our editors shared their talls on works in progress, urgent matters, and current happenings in architecture and special politics. I am a valley siloed currently an editor in sail architectures stumbled team. Today I am joined by landscape and book designer, Anna Maria think and writer and musician mates on the mouse to talk about rhino and alternative story, their collaborative contribution within the stories on art project and the parallel program of the Dutch pavilion in Venice architecture Biennale. Hi Anna. Hi, miss firstly. Congratulations. That was really nice to see your work and think more about that. Firstly, I would like to ask considering the theme of the BNR and the response of that to pavilion, would you like to talk about who is rhino and how the human and non-human actors of the story are chosen?
Speaker 1 00:00:59 Well, this whole idea about rhinos came actually during one of the workshops that we did for this project. And then I got this idea about some dystopian futuristic story about where rhinos have taken over our, our, the human spaces. So when me and Anna got together to actually work on it, I thought it would be nice to proceed on that story. I'm actually a fan of these type of stories myself. So to me it was, yeah, it felt it was, it was inspiring to, to write something like that. I don't know if you know the movie 12 monkeys with Bruce Willis and Brad Pitt. That's one of my favorite movies. And I kind of had a similar field where we were when I was writing this like, like that movie, like some story that is different it's in the future, it's kind of mysterious and it actually reveals itself at the end. So that was the way I jumped into the story.
Speaker 0 00:01:54 Actually, the storage, the time and the history by the unfolding events, how was the structuring of the story happen? Because it's really challenges the time and the perception of the people that are there that are listening. For example, for me, the most catching phrase was Andrea saying that we live here as we used to leave constantly during the living conditions of the human. And non-human, could you tell us more how you structured that and how human animal Alliance scenario came out
Speaker 1 00:02:29 Open in a way so that if in the future I decide, I want to get more out of this story. I can maybe, you know, write a more complete story and this is, this is actually a really short story, but, uh, yeah, the thing about Andrea's saying something like that was just too, I want it, even though certain roles have been changed, I wanted, I wanted the human field to, to remain in the, in the story because it is still told from out of the human, even though it's about rhinos, it's a, it's about how the humans live under those circumstances. And I want it to make it exciting. So that's why there's this rush. And there's this feeling of being chased while just giving a different perspective on things. Cause that was also the, the assignment from field architecture was to re-imagine the spaces. So I thought this gave a new dimension to how we treat each other, how we deal with things. And especially that scenario that you were talking about where address is explaining the circumstances. Um, while I was writing that, it actually made me think of our current circumstances in the world with lockdowns and curfews. So I thought it was very relevant. So I had, I actually had a lot of fun working on this project.
Speaker 0 00:03:52 Yeah. It definitely resonates on the, you know, current living situation and that stuff, maybe this can lead to the second question that I want to ask, but before, do you have any inputs about like who is rhino and how these, you know, non-human and human actors are finding themselves in a particular environments and the story, and also like how did you come up with a method of cutting out the rhino from its surrounding and creating physical manifestation out of it?
Speaker 2 00:04:24 So when Mr met for the first time to have sort of a work session and the already developed this story or kept developing the idea of the rhino, I was very curious. I found it really funny also I think came from a very humorous collaboration or humorous moment also in the workshop. And I find it quite inspiring that I first also felt this distance too, towards the rhino, as an animal that I have never really encountered myself. And it was this distance that kept me asking who is rhino and how do I relate to rhino? And in the story, of course, it's very much about relationship to actually a new urban inhabitant that we have never seen as an urban inhabitant before, at least not in this way. That's how, how it else kind of related to the zoo. Now we have rhinos and many cities in the Netherlands, but we don't look at them as inhabitants.
Speaker 2 00:05:17 We look at them as exhibition objects, which is yeah. Also is very strange. So I was just thinking of how can I create a process that allows me to get to know rhino. And we have been also talking about going to visit all the rhinos in the Netherlands, but we were in deep lockdown at that point. So it just wasn't possible at all. So the whole research for me started with looking up images of rhinos and simply following what Google images, what the algorithm kind of presented about rhinos. And I had a very interesting talk with a friend of mine. I was just explaining, I'm starting this project about rhino. And I feel this enormous distance that it's this animal I never encountered before. And, and he said, well, you know, like before the last ice age and actually were the rhinos living in Europe, there was the wooly rhino.
Speaker 2 00:06:13 And so that, that was the aha moment I thought. Okay. So actually there has been a period where we were living with rhinos right here in this place. So yeah, I started to look more into the rhino in Europe. So that kind of became the frame for what kind of images and what kind of, uh, personalities of rhinos we were seeking. And so became a bit of a timeline, looking back to the wooly rhino. Then there is a huge gap of like 15,000 years until, well, there have been rhinos apparently brought to Europe in Roman times, but there's no actual imagery of that. And then suddenly there's do you ever making the sketch of a rhino? And that was also quite a beautiful story because apparently do bear has never seen a rhino before in 15, 15, there was the first rhino shipped to, um, to the port of Lisbon.
Speaker 2 00:07:10 And, um, he only read a story and a few sketches of this rhino that came into the port and then he made his own interpretation of it. And I'm still really fascinated how he did that. It looks very, it looks very strange and yet in its mysteriousness. And you can really imagine that it's kind of maybe real and yeah, after that, there was another period of 50 years where there were no rhinos and then another rhino came and then in around 1750, there was a rhino called Claro who became really famous actually who traveled through all of Europe and was exhibited in a way. And it was also strange to feel that there's this personification in this history of the rhino in Europe. And yeah, and then finally we ended up at this images of rhinos and zoos here in the Netherlands. So very, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:08:04 Images of people made visit them to Sue, but also these strange images of these intimate moments of the rhino mothers having their first baby and captured on the webcam. And yeah, so with this whole collection of images, finally, I thought that what I'm going to do with it now familiarizing myself with the rhino. So I started to cut them out, like first print them out to kind of have a physical manifestation of them and then to cut them out and literally freedom from this context that we've created for them, trying to get that person out and, and on a scale of my hands also. So every rhino could fit into my hand and that's when I started to place it around myself in the studio, realizing that suddenly new environments came into being. And that really made me think of, yeah, I've missed story again in the, how would it rain or be in the city and how awkward this juxtaposition would be.
Speaker 2 00:09:07 And, and I was really happy about finding that, that the rhino actually had this presence in my own space. And then I started to extend that towards the, the surrounding of the studio going into the garden, going into the park and then seeing how like, um, yeah, then suddenly the renovator became a person in the sense of that. It had a specific quality about it due to the way the image was taken or that it was a drawing or did, it was two rhinos together and it sits the, and, and I cracked, I had to look in this very familiar in a environment of the city of how to, how to give them this new place. And finally, these kind of strange images came out that then I think were an interesting way to illustrate the story. Not, not very literal, but simply in expanding parts of the story into another ideas or, yeah.
Speaker 0 00:10:04 Yeah. It's pretty much explanatory, but I'm really curious, like how all this research and writing process come along, because obviously there is some imagination about the space and the story and the personalities, but you were, you know, working remote, I guess. Like, I don't know. Have you ever managed to come together for the workshops and stuff? How your processes are intersected? Why producing this output?
Speaker 1 00:10:34 Yeah, it was actually, uh, we actually only met once physically and everything else was online. Uh, the workshops were all online, so it was a lot of going back and forth. You know, I kept editing pieces of the story and I kept showing me new images. So it, it, it, the process was exciting. Cause every few weeks we got a little further in the process and I was actually really excited when Anna came up with this, this concept about cutting out to the rhinos and the whole idea of actually physically setting them free. So that was to me pretty deep. I think it, it, it added a lot to the story I was, I was writing. Yeah, that was the process. Just keep we kept going back and forth and also every now and then discussing it with, uh, Kiarra and Dafner from film architecture. So yeah, we just kept working on it until we had something that we thought we were satisfied with.
Speaker 0 00:11:30 From that point, I can move on to the last question, the final output of the project you did as a physical book, a film and a PDF book, and this all outputs enables different layers of perceptions in the audience. So this also has different components at text textures sound and embedded hyperlinks. How did you decide that variety of methods and how do you prefer it to be exhibited and what is a possible future after life of the project? As Mitzvots mentioning in the beginning of our talk,
Speaker 2 00:12:11 I think that the original spark was also a bit a pragmatic one, which was simply to vend a situation of, of having, uh, lockdowns and uncertainties about physical manifestations and, and possibilities affects a bit exhibiting in the traditional sense. And I found it really inspiring. We had to think of different modes of indeed understanding the story. And I liked that it can apply to a larger number of different audiences. We were also, miss has made a very beautiful children's book before and also a sort of a theater and we really imagined, but it also could be a children's story. And at the same time, there's also very specific audience and Venice that we will look at it. But yeah, I think the variety really tries to capture these different aspects. And then, and indeed also makes the encounter different, like the actual book that you can, that you can get.
Speaker 2 00:13:14 It's very small, it's like the size of a smartphone. So that was the idea that you can carry it with. You can put it in your pocket and when you hold it in your hands, you actually have this huge animal, the rhino right there in your Palm. So it's kind of an intimate sphere and there, but there's also an exhibition version of the book that is larger. So you can get more kind of sucked into the images and have, have a more encompassing look at it at the book itself. And then I think the video also with the, in collaboration with the video maker has its hole opens a different dimension with miss actually reading the story, adding his own voice to it, then on feel to the story. So, um, yeah, I'm really happy that we had this possibility also to go in all these directions.
Speaker 1 00:14:04 It's kind of, yeah. Making the most out of the situation. Cause like Anna said, we were in sort of a lockdown. We couldn't really go out and do other things because I think we talked about doing a, an installation at first that we could present at a, at a, at a, at the event, but then there were uncertainties about the event itself and whether we could even be there. So, so then yeah, that sparked a lot of thinking in a whole creative process. So I'm actually, yeah, like I said, it's now we have, we have, we've created more than, than we maybe would have created if we weren't in the situation.
Speaker 0 00:14:44 Yeah, definitely like before asking to you, I had no idea of the book having a really small version that can fit into the pockets and it totally changes, you know, all the idea and us bags and the like perceiving the old work altogether. I was about to ask a bit more about, uh, in your story, you're saying myths, uh, human and people aligns like it's a really, you know, like it's like a children's story, but it also has that, you know, political approach that has hidden meanings and messages inside. Like, would you like to elaborate more on that?
Speaker 1 00:15:22 Uh, personally I call it a children's book for adults. So it's kind of it's in the style of a children's book, but of course the story is much more intense than it than a children's story would be. But because it's about an animal, it kind of also sounds like a children's book because a lot of children's book have animal estimated characters. Like I mentioned the movie 12 monkeys earlier, cause that was kind of the idea of a group of people who have formed a really close bond with, with animals and actually feel that there shouldn't be any difference between humans and other animals. It like it mentions in the book, uh, the human animal Alliance just had this idea for equality, but, um, the question remains whether they accomplish that or whether they created something else
Speaker 0 00:16:17 I can ask one more thing to Ana, while you said you were playing around with the corrals of the images of the rhinos in your workshop. And also we are seeing the pictures of the rhinos cutouts pieces in the construction sites, also in the story in the lust parts alter the story. Actually there is a lot of information about the physical and why Ironmans dad's story goes on. So like how it's affected your decisions to picture and place the cutout pieces. And how was it, how was that process of playing actually outside in the city with the images of the rhino?
Speaker 2 00:16:59 Yeah, it was quite literally going for a walk with the rhinos along this route, which is sort of a route. I, I, I walk very, very frequently like a daily route. Um, I just started to place them in a way, look for this, the relationship between the quality of the image and the quality of the space and the textures and how it came together and was often quite surprising how, how they fit it as if they have always been there or should have been there, or, yeah, so it was a quite playful exercise. I think a very, very intuitive also simply to, to find a dialogue between what is already there and, uh, what can be imagined. And then finally the, um, the structure of the images within the story was also very associative. So sometimes there's a very intense moment in, in the story. And then, uh, yeah, I chose an image that has a certain intensity with it or, or there is a baby rhino on it on a moment where the story is about a child. So it's quite freely associated, I think maybe also very subjective, but I think that it's okay because the story is very clear and I find it interesting to give a certain freedom within the, the development of the image story.
Speaker 0 00:18:23 Yeah. Yeah. I'm also curious what was specifically hard about collaborating from further distance or online and what's pushed you in the process, like what was particularly hard for you because I'm so surprised at how much resonates a border of your work inside each other. So like, yeah. I'm really curious what was hard.
Speaker 2 00:18:49 Yeah. I think we really wanted to see each other, so, and missing him managed actually to, to really meet at the very beginning of the project before we, I think it was even before Ms has developed the story of the rhino and it, and it was really just getting to know each other spending time and hanging out basically, and just telling each other about each other's work. And yeah, I think that was really good to get a sense of who you're collaborating with, which is not so easy to do on a screen because then it's really very much done to the point of what are, what are we going to do? What do we want to reach together? And it becomes very formal and maybe a bit too straightforward. So I think that helped our process and then also really appreciated that there were moments where the whole group met, where we met and definitely Chiara.
Speaker 2 00:19:41 And we also met the other two groups and we also, I think, inspired each other with, uh, reflecting on certain ideas. And I, a very nice moment was also the, when, um, there was a video made of us by I think, um, estimating's phones or new Institute. They wanted to contribute something to the opening ceremony. So we had a camera crew at my studio and, and most of our team met there. And that was also the first moment that we met physically. And it was quite cute because we had a blast and they filmed us hanging out again together. But that was also very inspiring moment because we were still all in, uh, in development of the physical things. So like having an Angela brought, um, a piece of their textile installation and we could look at it and feel it. And I was still debating about the size of the book and, and there was really a nice exchange just to yeah. Share some thoughts. Yeah. Because the, the, the,
Speaker 0 00:20:45 The first meeting me and Anna had was actually
Speaker 1 00:20:47 Very important because that really changed how we stepped into this project because yeah. I've written books before and Ana has actually crafted books before. So that, that, that we thought, okay, well then we have to make a book because, so that was really fun because when I saw honest work, I thought, okay, this can really turn into something great. So if we, if we, I think if we, if we didn't do it like this, and we would still make a certain installation that they maybe a giant book to just put somewhere in an exhibition would have been even, you know, also an idea, a rhino
Speaker 2 00:21:25 Sized book, maybe that's next.
Speaker 1 00:21:27 Yeah. As big as the rhino itself. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:21:30 Hmm. That's amazing. It's also, I have to say that on that video that you mentioned, everyone was meeting in your workshop, everyone was looking so happy and it was so obvious that like you finally managed to meet and yeah. It was,
Speaker 1 00:21:46 Yeah. That was the time that I actually couldn't be there. So, no, I wasn't, I wasn't there that day.
Speaker 2 00:21:54 Yeah. So unfortunately it hasn't been a moment where we could all meet. So I hope one day that will, that will still come, maybe I think, missed where we should still do our suit tour and just go and see all the rhinos of the Netherlands at some time.
Speaker 1 00:22:09 Yeah. We should do that because we could still keep promoting this, uh, this work that we did, uh, even after the whole event.
Speaker 0 00:22:17 Yeah. Please keep us posted when you're having the tour with tiny rhinos on your hands and real size rhinos on sadly on the zoos. Um, yeah. Thank you very much. It was really nice to, you know, hear further of author's process because as I was, you know, digging into more about the video and the PDF book and stuff, you know, it was getting deep and deep and even it's really nice to finally hear it out from you.
Speaker 1 00:22:45 Thank you very much. Thank you for having us.
